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Apr. 3rd, 2007 @ 12:07 am Rant #10
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macca
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 11:28 am (UTC)
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I'm a bit puzzled by this rant; you state that your intention is to show that Paul wasn't "pretty perfect Paulie," but then spend a good deal of time elaborating on how he was just about blameless in his disastrous relationship with Jane, and don't really touch on why you think he was instrumental in the Beatles break-up and so on, which I would have liked to see.

"I'm NOT saying she is to blame for Paul's behavior (because he was horrid for cheating on her like that), but I am saying that she made a choice NOT to be that serious with Paul and to pursue her career. Now before you jump all over me, saying that I'm setting women back 50 years, I am all about women's lib and all that stuff (my job alone would be evidence of that)….I'm just saying when you (man or woman) choose a career over personal life, you have to deal with the consequences."

Why should it be a black & white choice? If both people are fully commited to a relationship, it should be perfectly possible for both to maintain separate careers, even if that does involve time apart. I'm sure there are plenty of people in this community who can testify to that, and I personally have a huge amount of respect for Jane for being the only Beatle wife/girlfriend at that early stage who wasn't prepared to jack in her successful career or her independence.

In spite of this, I do agree completely with this statement:

"So I admire the man Paul became, but not the man he was as a Beatle."

I'm also hugely critical of Paul during this period, but greatly respect him for changing and developing as a person.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 01:02 pm (UTC)
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First of all, can we say *facepalm*? :)

"And whether you like it or not, it IS always a black and white choice, depending on the couple."

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? Either it's always a black & white choice, OR it depends on the couple, surely? :) I still think it's possible for couples to maintain successful careers in separate fields with no sacrifice on either side, although you're right insofaras it certainly does depend on the individuals involved. Wanting the same things in a relationship is crucial, whether that be both wanting one partner to remain at home, or both wanting to pursue careers.

"So, I guess all I was saying that while Paul was a horrible womanizing dog for cheating on Jane, I think Jane was just as responsible for the breakup, and she or he should have probably broken things off sooner, because there was no way that relationship was going to work, unless one of them drastically changed their goals. That was not about to happen on either end."

I do absolutely agree with you on this point; I just don't blame Jane, exactly. Applaud, more like!

"LOL, yup, I certainly can testify to it, though being apart from Ron is NOT what I would choose, if I were given the choice."

You & Ron are the couple I had in mind when I wrote that, as a matter of fact.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 01:25 pm (UTC)
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Well, at least you have the knowledge that I was holding the two of you up as an exemplary marriage. :)

Every time I respond to a rant, I consider the possibility that I'm going to be ripping into one of my, uh, homies. :) But I can't say that's ever really stopped me from voicing my opinion. I'd have said more or less than same thing if you'd posted this in your own journal, which I think you probably know.

"Erm, no. What I mean to say is, that every single couple out there faces a unique set of circumstances and decisions, BUT each person's goals as they apply to the relationship are quite black and white. If Ron and I had wanted different things in life we never would have gotten married. Black and white."

I think we're more or less on the same page, we're just expressing it differently. Quelle surprise :)
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 01:44 pm (UTC)
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"Yup, (though I am still surprised by your lack of comment on my War post...Peladon not voicing her opinion? What is the world coming to???) and I have to do the same thing. Same with BeatleSecret. But I think at this point, we've established that we are mature enough to handle differing opinions and still like each other. ;)"

I'm still surprised by my lack of comment on your war post! I think it's a combination of desperately not wanting to offend you or shit all over the things you believe very passionately in, and knowing that if I were to talk about my perspective on the subject, it would be an epic comment :) Would you have any reservations if I were tackle this in my own journal? I almost feel I should, because a lot of people seemed to think I'd already done it in my America entry, so I might as well make a proper job of it!
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From:adaveen
Date:April 3rd, 2007 02:29 pm (UTC)
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I second the motion - after all, I'm ex-military.
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 3rd, 2007 03:11 pm (UTC)
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I totally agree with what you said about Jane! Go her for not chucking it all to just be a Beatle girlfriend!
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 05:22 pm (UTC)
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Woo, yeah!

Seriously, though, when I think of what happened to Pattie's career, it just kills me. I don't think it's ever a sacrifice worth making, to be honest, particularly when you're at the top of your game, as she was.
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 3rd, 2007 05:57 pm (UTC)
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I don't know much about Pattie's career - did she give it up for George?

I think it's a shame to give up a career if the reason is that you're a woman and that's what women do. To give up a career to just be a girlfriend or a wife. I suppose it matters if you enjoy said career or not. If you don't, well, maybe it's not such a sacrifice to give up. Anyway, I didn't see any of the Beatles giving up their career ambitions or aspirations at the time. John certainly didn't let getting his girlfriend pregnant stop him.

Anyway, for me, it's about choice, and if you choose a certain life, that's your business. Pressure to give it up, or giving it up because that's just what's done is something else entirely.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 06:41 pm (UTC)
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I think this video shows you all you need to know about Pattie & George's marriage. The sheer lack of conviction in her voice when she says that it's her choice to stay out of the limelight makes me want to weep, it really does.
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 9th, 2007 03:03 am (UTC)
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I just watched it.

Gee, why would a wife want to block the spotlight on her husband, right?

Yep.

So, did she quit modeling entirely when she married him?

I guess no 3 kids, either!
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 9th, 2007 08:43 am (UTC)
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She did bits and pieces, but she just about jacked it in at his request.

And they didn't have the children because Pattie turned out to be unable to bear them, sadly.
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 9th, 2007 02:32 pm (UTC)
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Wow - I can't imagine a guy asking me to give up something like that. But I guess it wasn't uncommon back then.

Poor Pattie! No career, but no kids either!
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 06:39 pm (UTC)
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I think that's the difference though - you're happy to give it up, it's your decision. I personally don't think Pattie would have given up her career, if the choice had been hers to make. But she doesn't strike me as a particularly strong, assertive woman, and I think she bowed easily under pressure from George.

I'm still not giving up anything for anyone though. Been there, done that, nearly lost the lot. Horrible.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 3rd, 2007 06:47 pm (UTC)
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"Then shame on Pattie for not having a backbone."

Yes, very true. I so much want to have been there, so I could give her a good shaking.
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From:pauls_left_hand
Date:April 6th, 2007 03:11 pm (UTC)
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whoops, should have read this before I shot my mouth off :)
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From:pauls_left_hand
Date:April 6th, 2007 03:10 pm (UTC)
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I don't think it's ever a sacrifice worth making, to be honest
Sorry, I'm a little late to the conversation here, but I just had to step in and comment, on a general note that is as I know zilch about George and Pattie's relationship and have little interest in it. I have to disagree with you though about it never being worth giving up your career for marriage and parenthood, when parenting is probably one of the most important jobs anyone can ever do. I get really riled by this attitude (and by 'this', I don't mean 'yours') that women (or men for that matter) have to be in paid employment to be pursuing a fulfilling and rewarding role in life.

I think you may be referring to just marriage in your comment above, rather than parenting per se, but one is usually intended to follow the other. Also, some people and particularly in some jobs, may need the full time support of a partner. I see nothing wrong with that if, and again this may be your point, that is what the supporting partner wants. For others, being a full time spouse/parent is what they want out of life and they should be supported in that, not pitied as a matter of course.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 6th, 2007 03:16 pm (UTC)
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I must say that parenting hadn't entered my mind during this discussion. It's not particularly relevant to my life at this stage.