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Apr. 4th, 2007 @ 11:29 am Rant Post #11
Yoko Love... Maybe Not!



Like there are people bashing Yoko like crazy, there are people that make you feel that if you don't love her, you'll burn in the fire of hell 'cause Saint John [Lennon] won't let you be in Heaven.

I know is tiring to hear Yoko bashing everywhere, but the people rubbing Yoko love in your face when you don’t give a sh*t about her is also tiring. There are people like me that doesn’t hate her, but doesn’t love her either, and they can live a peaceful life without hearing/reading her name [specially her voice] and people would make you feel like not a real fan [of The Beatles] just because you don’t trust in John’s common sense of falling in love with her. The most frequent example is “If John loved her, you should do it too”, well, my response to that, people said the same thing with Heather Mills, and look what happened to the people that trusted in Paul’s common sense of falling in love with her, we just CAN’T judge someone we don’t know, in a good or bad way.

I can’t seem to love Yoko [even if I tried] ‘cause we don’t have anything in common, I don’t really like her music, I don’t understand her art, believes, way of thinking, there’s just nothing that I can find appealing to even say that “I like her”.

And to the people that have tried to make me feel like I don’t deserve to call myself a Lennon fan, I just can tell them that I bet John would have understood why I don’t like his wife more than they do.

I stopped bashing Yoko when I understood that I don’t know her enough to really judge her and make an opinion of her, so, I only make ‘neutral’ talks about her, sometimes I confess the things I agree about of what she does and maybe some times I say what I don’t like of the things she have done, but are opinions based in real facts, not in fantasy idiotic things like “Oh she’s a witch and she broke up the Beatles”. [Like I said, I stopped that shit ‘cause I stopped caring].

I just say that no one has the right to hate her without knowing her or a real fact, that you truly know it happened [Like the one’s that says that she broke up the Beatles, if you have real facts that proves that theory, well, go and tell it to the world, write a book or something, but if you don’t, just keep it to yourself] and the one’s that blindly loves her just because John did, you should start making your own decisions and think for yourself, specially when you’re preaching your love for her and trying to brainwash other people to love her too.

The point of all this, is that I make my own decisions, and I decided not to give a sh*t about her, and it totally annoys me when people is trying to shove Yoko into my life, to me, she’s only John Lennon’s widow.
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john-pepper
abromeds:
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 4th, 2007 05:50 pm (UTC)
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The most frequent example is “If John loved her, you should do it too”, well, my response to that, people said the same thing with Heather Mills, and look what happened to the people that trusted in Paul’s common sense of falling in love with her

I like this point!

We're going to form our own judgements, no matter what - we've all got our opinions on Beatles, and how can we love any of them never having met them or interacted with them? Sure, you can say I can't fully judge Yoko because I didn't know her, but her actions and such are very public, so I think I can form an opinion based on those things. Maybe that's not the whole Yoko, but it's enough for me. And for the record, I'm not a fan - I very much don't like the way she interfered with the Beatles - maybe she didn't break them up, but she inserted herself in a very presumptious way, something Linda was very careful not to do. (The Emerick book I've been pimping has some interesting stories to this regard. The straw that broke the camel's back for George seemed to be her eating one of his digestive biscuits.)

I don't like the way Cynthia discovered Yoko wearing her bathrobe, in her house. That's just tacky. And sure, that's John's fault too.

I don't like that Yoko isolated John from the Beatles post-break-up and fostered this deep-seated dependence. I don't like the heroin use she encouraged. Etc. etc. I may not be able to speak on how she is personally, but I can still form opinions on her actions.

I do like that she seemed to have taught John the value of women as the equals of men. So I'll give her that much.

And if John doesn't like my opinions on Yoko, that's too bad! I'm glad he was able to see something that I can't, but just because I don't get her or her art doesn't mean I'm not able to be a fan of John. :-)
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 5th, 2007 12:13 am (UTC)
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At least I've made my opinion on The Beatles, and that's that I like them, but is because their talent more than anything else, their music is the first thing on my "Why I love The Beatles" list, but not liking Yoko's can't make me form an opinion of her, maybe I don't like her, but I don't hate her either, is a 50/50 situation, I can tell the good and the bad of her (the public things), but I can't judge her, 'cause I don't know her. That's the main thing, like I can't judge Paul, John, Ringo, George etc.

but just because I don't get her or her art doesn't mean I'm not able to be a fan of John. :-)
AMEN!
From:world_falls
Date:April 4th, 2007 06:04 pm (UTC)
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There are people like me that doesn’t hate her, but doesn’t love her either, and they can live a peaceful life without hearing/reading her name [specially her voice] and people would make you feel like not a real fan [of The Beatles] just because you don’t trust in John’s common sense of falling in love with her.

I'm mostly neutral on Yoko, all though at times I fall more heavily on the side of being annoyed by her than anything else. Mostly, I would be perfectly content if I never had to discuss much about her again. And it's bullshit to say if you like John you'll like her. For Christsakes, how many people in RL do each of us know that date/are engaged to/MARRY someone we just don't like all that much. But yet, you can continue calling that person a friend, maybe a best friend, and just not click with their partner.
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 5th, 2007 12:15 am (UTC)
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Completely agree with you, my best friend's ex-boyfriend was annoying and I totally hated her and still I adored my best friend as much as before he met her hahaha...
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 4th, 2007 06:39 pm (UTC)

This is really long! LOL

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When I was like 14 and 15 I got heavily into the Beatles. At that time, I was just discovering all the basic Beatle info and mythos and watched things like "Imagine: John Lennon" and "Gimme Some Truth" and I totally bought into all that "John & Yoko = Romeo & Juliet" stuff but as I delved deeper into reading various biographies and interviews with others in the know, I realized it wasn't that simple. Their relationship was anything but fairytale-like. It seems, to me, that John really had an unhealthy addiction to Yoko. Actually, I have my own complex theory about the John/Yoko relationship that I'll share with you now. LOL

From all I've read and heard about John, it seems that he had a strong need for patriarch-type figures in his life. He was abandoned by his father as a child and then passed off from his mother to be raised by his domineering aunt. He grew up seeing the female as the "boss" in male/female relationships. He had a great need to connect with his mother whom he viewed as an illusive free-spirit. As a teen, he finally begins to form a relationship with his mother and he shares with her his love of music and that becomes a bonding tool for them. Just as all this is happening, his mother dies.
When John forms the Beatles, Brian Epstein enters his life. Brian becomes John's manager and all around caretaker, thus filling the role of parent and since Brian was gay and had many feminine personality traits he effectively became both father and mother to John.
Flash forward to when Brian Epstein dies. The feeling for John is essentially like losing his mother and father all over again. He has no one to take care of him. It is around this time that Yoko enters the picture. Yoko is much older than John and is also a very shrewd business person. John sees her as an crazy free-spirit like his mother and starts a romance with her. John even cryptically mentions Yoko in the song "Julia" which is written for his mother showing the obvious connection he makes between the two of them.
When the Beatles break up, it's another life altering moment for John and he clearly let's Yoko steer his life path. Therefore Yoko begins to take on the role that John's aunt played in his youth. This culminates with Yoko kicking John out of their home. John has once again lost his "parent".
John then has a relationship with May Pang. May clearly had much affection for John and he to her but with May being younger and also being his employee at one time, this made John the dominant one in the relationship. Just like in his first marriage to Cynthia, this was a role John never psychologically matured into accepting. He was used to being the "child" and being the one taken care of so as soon as the he gets the opportunity, he goes running back to Yoko.

So, to make a long story longer... I believe John was not so much "in love" with Yoko but more that he had a deep psychological need to have someone with authority take care of him. With Yoko (whom he frequently refered to as "mother"), he must have felt he had his mother, his aunt and Brian Epstein all rolled into one.

But hey, what do I know? LOL
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From:adaveen
Date:April 4th, 2007 06:50 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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What she said.

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From:adaveen
Date:April 4th, 2007 08:28 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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Then what HE said.
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 4th, 2007 08:53 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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LOL. It even says "BOY" in my icon!!!

I don't why I'm the only male in the Beatle communities.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 4th, 2007 09:21 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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I didn't know you were a boy! I'm really thrilled about that! :)
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 4th, 2007 11:34 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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I'm thrilled about it too! ;)
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 4th, 2007 08:56 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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We agree?

That might be the first sign of the apocalypse! LOL
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 4th, 2007 11:58 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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I quite agree with you, luv..... listen to woman "I know you understand, the little child inside the man" he said it himself. I agree with you :D
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 5th, 2007 02:07 am (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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Ooh, I didn't even think about that lyric! Good call.
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From:pauls_left_hand
Date:April 6th, 2007 02:40 pm (UTC)

Re: This is really long! LOL

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Stupendous! Consider your self standingly ovated.

But hey, what do I know?
Quite a lot by the look of it :)

So you're a rude boy huh? We went back 30 years last week at a real rude boy gig. Great stuff.
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 4th, 2007 08:09 pm (UTC)
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I try not to push my own Yoko loving agenda in people's faces but when you're in a conversation of people saying, "oh I think she's horrid" and "John should never have married her" it's hard not to say, "well I think she's fantastic and it's a shame more people don't think like that."

Seriously, there are so many people pushing their Pattie love in my face when I am certainly no fan of hers, or more recently, their May love, that I've come to just ignore it.

For the small ammount of people that do like Yoko there are about a million people who don't (sad but true) and for the small group who actually give her the respect she deserves as A HUMAN BEING there are even more still who don't.

She’s only John Lennon’s widow
If she was anyone else's widow, that would get her a certain ammount of respect.

Now everyone has the right to either like or dislike someone, and to express their opinions. Everytime I open my mouth (or start typing) I expect my pro-Ono views to get bashed to high heaven.

John would never have done anything if he didn't on some level want to. Stop blaming her from him isolating himself for the beatles, or for breaking up with Cynthia (who I also adore), or for doing harder drugs...

I guess I'm just trying to say that people like me who actually like Yoko, and not just because she was with John, who actually enjoy her and her music, find it hard not to speak up about it, like you all praise Linda or Pattie or Maureen, and we shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it.
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From:adaveen
Date:April 4th, 2007 08:30 pm (UTC)
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I like Yoko, too, on her own terms. That doesn't mean I don't think their relationship was "differently functional".

;)

In fact, I'm sort of surprised she didn't really get tired of his codependant nonsense. Then again, maybe she did once in a while.
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:25 pm (UTC)
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Perhaps that's why he didn't get back home so easily.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 4th, 2007 09:28 pm (UTC)
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Who's been pushing their Pattie love in your face? I thought I was the only Pattie fan in Beatle fandom! At least, judging by the amount of anti-Pattie secrets there are in beatlesecret.

"I guess I'm just trying to say that people like me who actually like Yoko, and not just because she was with John, who actually enjoy her and her music, find it hard not to speak up about it"

Like you, I'm largely pro-Yoko, and not simply because she's John wife and "that should be enough." (Urgh.) I appeciate her for being a strong, independent, brave woman with important things to say and an interesting way of saying them. And as a John fan, I also deeply appreciate the positive influence she exercised over him. A lot of Beatles fans would say her influence was destructive, and I see where they're coming from, but I just can't ignore the wonderful changes she inspired in him. She's not perfect, but nobody is, and I do sort of adore her. :)

That said, I've never felt any reluctant to voice this opinion - I've found most Beatle fans are pretty accepting of the diverse Yoko perspectives out there, and I've certainly never received any flack for speaking well of her. Don't be afraid to praise Teh Yoko!
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:42 am (UTC)
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There was a wave of George/Pattie fandom that totally threw me for six. It was declaring that their love was perfect and they were the most wonderful couple ever... which at first made me laugh, then made me feel a little funny in the tummy, and not in a good way. Just like John and Yoko, George and Pattie had monster problems. They were beautiful, very photogenic and probably loved each other at a time, but calling them something they weren't is crazy.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 5th, 2007 08:52 am (UTC)
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Oh Lord! I have a soft spot for Pattie Boyd a mile wide, but Pattie/George makes me want to weep, and I can't sit back and watch people squeeing over their marriage without stepping in and correcting a few assumptions and inaccuracies. So I sympathise! :)
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:26 pm (UTC)
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George/Pattie, like John/Yoko, certainly were photogenic. I just wish people wouldn't put them up on a pedastal. They were human, all four of them, and while some parts of their relationships worked, others didn't.

At least George and Pattie were civil, unlike John towards poor Cynthia.
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From:abromeds
Date:April 4th, 2007 10:33 pm (UTC)
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John would never have done anything if he didn't on some level want to. Stop blaming her from him isolating himself for the beatles, or for breaking up with Cynthia (who I also adore), or for doing harder drugs...

I think Yoko does deserve a big portion of blame for those things. Yes, everyone has free will, but some people are exceptionally vulnerable to manipulation, and while that's "their own problem" in a sense, it doesn't excuse anyone who decides to selfishly take advantage of it, as I believe Yoko did.

That said, I echo queenpeladon's reasons for liking/respecting Yoko. I don't think she's teh ebul. And there's NO WAY I could say with any conviction that she was the "worst" one in the relationship; I believe JohnandYoko was all sortsa fucked up, and a lot of that came from John's end -- he treated her absolutely abominably, at times. So, if I try to be objective, I really can't say that there's any reason for me to like Yoko less than John.

But unlike John, Yoko doesn't make me gasp in awe of her brilliant art, or go all squidgey inside with irrational lurve. ;) Which isn't her fault, but it does probably warp my view of their relationship.
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:50 am (UTC)
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Yoko's influence on John wasn't all bad, think all the good that came from it, eg The Bed Ins? Sorry, I'm sorry, getting all pushy.

About Yoko's art, each to their own. There are people who don't like the Beatles, and that's okay. To some, Wings doesn't quite tickle their fancy, and that's okay. There are some who believe Ringo Starr and His All Starr Band is not quite their cup of tea, and that's okay too. The day we stop forming our own opinions is the day we stop being human.

It doesn't excuse anyone who decides to selfishly take advantage of it, as I believe Yoko did.
I don't believe she did that, what did she have to gain from John doing heroin? Or quitting the Beatles? And they were in contact well before any sort of sexual relationship began, about 2 years, so it wasn't as if she was pushing her way into his life.

In so many ways Yoko was just as vulnerable as John, broken marriages, estranged from her parents, having been brought up by Nannys...
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:58 am (UTC)
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And she had a medical depression, I read that can't remember where, and I really felt sorry for Yoko, it was because her first marriage failed, she was doped all day long in a clinic... it was horrible!
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 03:28 am (UTC)
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Though she and John did make a beautiful baby. Who is totally a Mummy's boy, and spends HEAPS of time with her when he's in town.
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From:abromeds
Date:April 7th, 2007 01:28 am (UTC)
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Yoko's influence on John wasn't all bad, think all the good that came from it

Yes, absolutely, there were some good things which resulted from it. I don't pretend to know what would have happened to John without Yoko; part of me tends to think things would have been much worse for him. But that doesn't excuse what I see as some major flaws in her character.

About Yoko's art, each to their own.

The point I was trying to make about Yoko's art vs. John's art was simply that my partiality to John's no doubt tilts my perspective in his favor when viewing their relationship. And while I'm not sure how fair or legitimate that is, it IS certainly commonplace. We tend to grant greater allowances to those who have touched millions of lives through their genius and art... and you know, part of me thinks that that IS legitimate.

Also, I don't think art is entirely subjective, either; I think John was easily the superior artist of the two by almost any objective measure.

I don't believe she did that, what did she have to gain from John doing heroin? Or quitting the Beatles?

Well, I'm actually doubtful she deliberately got him hooked on heroin for her own evil purposes. That seems more than a little far-fetched to me. But as for cutting him off from his friends and loved ones, I absolutely do believe that. Many people have testified to it: Cynthia, Julian, the other Beatles, May Pang, Pete Shotton, etc. I believe she did it because she is an intensely insecure and controlling person.

And they were in contact well before any sort of sexual relationship began, about 2 years, so it wasn't as if she was pushing her way into his life.

I didn't know that, thanks! :) And I never said I thought she was pushing her way into his life. But I do think she was manipulative and controlling once she did get in.
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 5th, 2007 12:38 am (UTC)
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In my HO your love for Yoko is more than ok, you like her art, believes, music, etc. That's wonderful, is just like liking any other artist, but there are people making you feel like a bad fan for not liking what she represents/does/did just because John loved her.

They are as annoying as the one's that hate her without any real fact, that's what I mean, loving her for what she does, is more than perfect, but loving her just because John did is not having personality haha.

I respect her as much as I respect anyone, my neightbor next door, my teachers, the pope, she's a humanbeing and as one she deserves being treated with respect. But not because of that I will love her right?.

Not long ago, I used to say that because of her John did horrible things, then I realized that John did what he did because he wanted to. I know he was easy to manipulate, but still he was a man, with a brain to tell him what's right and what's not. He was a grown up and knew what he was doing, he could have said "No" if he wanted to, but he didn't so.... there's no one to blame.

We shouldn't be blindly in love with John either to try to find someone to blame for his acts, in fact, whe shouldn't even blame him, it was his life and he could do whatever he wanted with it, I'd hate someone blaming me for breaking my ex-boyfriend's heart because I didn't love him. Sure, their relationship was in the spotlight and a lot of people can give their opinion etc etc, but in the end, it was THEIR relationship and THEIR lives, they could do whatever they pleased with it. And in a love relationship there are only two persons, so the rest of the world can complain all they want, they were two making their own decisions.... period.



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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:40 am (UTC)
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I just hate the way all Yoko fans are grouped together as being pushers of the Joko relationship. They had their problems, just like anyone else, but it boils down to the fact that I am a huge fan of both of them, so naturally, them together is fantastic.

It just gets annoying when people look at you and your opinions differently because you're a Yoko fan.
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:49 am (UTC)
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I'm not saying ALL Yoko fans, I'm just saying that some are like that and I'm annoyed already, that's all. I don't concidere you a pusher, and I don't look at you any different, I'm not that stupid.
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:51 am (UTC)
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I know, and that's why we're friends. I'm speaking of others, I should have made that more clear, and I'm sorry. I guess it's the same with slash haters and slash writers, if you get what I mean. I'm sorry if I made you mad.
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:53 am (UTC)
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No you didn't sorry I sounded in the wrong way haha.... I was afraid you thought I was being judging of you liking Yoko xD....
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From:xxprettyinmetal
Date:April 5th, 2007 01:58 am (UTC)
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Oh no, it's okay! I know we have differing opinions sometimes, but that's half the fun of being friends!

P.S. Everytime I see that picture in your icon, it reminds me of you!
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From:chester_bnngton
Date:April 5th, 2007 02:00 am (UTC)
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I also like knowing more about Yoko. ^^

PS: Really? Awww that's cute ^^
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 4th, 2007 09:19 pm (UTC)
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I absolutely agree with everything you said, particularly this:

"I just say that no one has the right to hate her without knowing her or a real fact, that you truly know it happened [Like the one’s that says that she broke up the Beatles, if you have real facts that proves that theory, well, go and tell it to the world, write a book or something, but if you don’t, just keep it to yourself] and the one’s that blindly loves her just because John did, you should start making your own decisions and think for yourself"

Being a Beatles/Lennon fan in no way means you have to support or agree with everything John said and did; I cannot bear that sort of attitude. So good job all-round, I think. :)
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From:madzilla
Date:April 5th, 2007 12:21 am (UTC)

I LOVE YOU.

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THANK YOU for this rant, I have been thinking about posting more or less the same thing for ages now. I don't have much to add, just wanted to say how glad I was to see this, and that I feel the same way - I'm so happy that there are others that do too. I don't have to be full of adoration for Yoko/Linda/whoever just because a Beatle was married to them, and whether I like them/don't like them/don't care or not has absolutely no bearing on how 'big' a Beatles fan I am.

Thanks, again. ♥
From:(Anonymous)
Date:April 5th, 2007 12:40 am (UTC)

Re: I LOVE YOU.

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You're welcome, luv :)