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Apr. 18th, 2007 @ 07:28 am Rant #17
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macca
abromeds:
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From:hb_princess
Date:April 18th, 2007 05:34 pm (UTC)
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Maybe she just wanted to be with her husband and kids. o.O Wow! What a fucking weirdo. (And in hindsight, what a SMART fucking weirdo, seeing as she got cheated out of about thirty years with them in the end.)

This line in particular just bugs the living shit out of me:

I seriously believe that her mere presence in the band undercut a huge chunk of Paul's credibility as a solo artist.

Are you kidding? If you "seriously believe" that, if you have SERIOUSLY allowed Linda's carefully-limited keyboard parts and carefully-mixed (and sometimes buried!) little harmonies to obscure the brilliance and scope of a huge chunk of Paul's solo career, you have a problem with your apples and oranges. You're no better or more discerning than Mick with his "I'd never have my old lady on stage" bullshit - you're both confusing image with reality.

*deep breath*

You know, I know everyone else is singing your praises here for this rant, and I'm probably just a grumpy, over-worked, half-asleep bitch, but...I dunno. It seems tremendously petty, shallow, and selfish to me. The woman's dead, okay? He got time with her and their kids he wouldn't have had otherwise. And whatever effect she had on his music she would have had anyway - she was his wife, for God's sake, the mother of his children and the love of his life - she would have played an enormous part in his music whether she was ten minutes or a thousand miles away.

And an awful lot of it was very very good music, IMO.

*sigh*

Welcome back, hb. :/
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From:abromeds
Date:April 18th, 2007 07:21 pm (UTC)
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WELCOME BACK, AICH-BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!



;P

No but seriously, I'm sooooooo glad you're back. :D :D :D I missed you. :) (You ARE back, aren't you? Like, fo realz?)

And I'm also glad you mentioned the "credibility" line, I took exception to that as well. What does it have to do with anything? Image schmigage. If they were fine with people making stupid jokes about them, then I applaud 'em.

I do agree with the ranter that Linda's membership in the band/presence in the studio may have undercut Paul's motivation to excel, his focus, etc. I'm not talking about back-up vocals or piano parts; I'm talking about Paul's brain ('cos that's what I do ^_^). And it's not as if she and the kids couldn't have still gone everywhere with him; they could all still have spent tons of time together. And I can't help feeling Paul was rather overdependent on her, and it would have been nice if he hadn't been.

BUT, then again, I can't really BLAME him for any of these things, and ultimately I'm not sure it made such a HUGE difference anyway, so...?
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From:hb_princess
Date:April 19th, 2007 05:21 pm (UTC)
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Hee! Thanks, doll! Yes, I'm back fo realz. *evil laugh* God help you all!!!!
I missed you, too. :D ALL of you! Even that z guy I yelled at yesterday. ;D

WELCOME BACK, AICH-BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

PS: When I read that fast, I thought it said "Welcome Back Beee-yatch!!!" xP Which woulda, you know, been perfectly appropriate, given the circumstances. (I was awfully cranky yesterday. Sorry, guys.)
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 18th, 2007 08:04 pm (UTC)
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You can't honestly believe that Linda added anything worthwhile, as a musician or singer, to Paul's music.

She and the kids could've gone on tour with Paul without Linda being on stage.

John and George are both deceased and people in this community have said far worse things about them than what I said about Linda. In fact, I said nothing bad about Linda. I just stated the obvious...she had little to no musical talent. I feel quite bad that Linda died far too soon and I'm sure she was a wonderful human being but she had no business being in the band.

Btw... The name of this community is Beatle RANT not Beatle KISS UP.

Cheers then :-)
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 18th, 2007 08:16 pm (UTC)
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I guess I just out-ed myself as the ranter!

Oh well. I'm sure my annoying over use of "..." gave me away already! LOL
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From:abromeds
Date:April 18th, 2007 08:44 pm (UTC)
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Btw... The name of this community is Beatle RANT not Beatle KISS UP.

Uhhhh, right. Counter-Ranting a critical Rant does not equate with "kissing up."
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 18th, 2007 09:16 pm (UTC)
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Yes, but her "counter-rant" was implying that I shouldn't even think such things because Linda is dead and Paul is so great...blah, blah, blah.

In my opinion, that's not really a "counter-rant". It's just kissing up.

But no use quibbling over semantics. :-)
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 19th, 2007 01:18 pm (UTC)
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C'mon now. You were the one who was ranting a while back that George was a crappy guitarist and should've been kicked out of the Beatles but you defend Linda being in Paul's bands?

"But I'm not so blind that I won't admit that part of the reason I feel this way is that I adore Linda as a person."

BINGO :-)
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From:hb_princess
Date:April 19th, 2007 04:29 pm (UTC)
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You can't honestly believe that Linda added anything worthwhile, as a musician or singer, to Paul's music.

I never said she did (though I did say she had an influence as his muse, his inspiration, blah blah blah what have you, a la "Maybe I'm Amazed", "My Love", etc.) And I never said you had to "kiss up" to anyone, so you can save the sarcasm, thanks. I just took issue with your statement - that Paul's solo career would have been SOOOOO much better and he would have been taken SOOOOOO much more seriously had Linda not been on stage with him - and I still do. Would drivel like "Bip Bop" be any LESS drivel if Linda didn't sing on it? Would Paul look any LESS ridiculous tap-dancing with an army of hermaphrodites and giant disembodied legs if Linda weren’t there? Is Linda’s presence the only thing keeping Give My Regards To Broad Street from being the burning classic of post-Fab mid-life crisis it could be? I mean, come on. Opinions are obviously most subjective things, but a little perspective goes a long way.

And while you are obviously not alone in finding Linda's constant presence in Paul's career annoying, I don’t believe it had much of a bearing on the quality of his music either way. (I do believe it altered the perception of that quality, but as I said in my initial comment, that’s the perceiver’s issue, not Paul’s.)

That said, I guess what really irks me about your rant is how presumptuous it sounds. As if being a fan of Paul's music gives you the right to demand some sort of control of his life and his personal decisions as well. Maybe that's not even what you meant, I don't know...I probably over-reacted. This is just a really prickly issue with me, and it got me into a very overheated debate with a good friend on another comm...Look, I know we all offer our unsolicited opinions on the Beatles all the time. And most of them I don’t feel are invasive or assuming. I feel perfectly comfortable with things like, for example, "You know, maybe a convicted drug felon really shouldn’t have tried to enter Japan with a pound of weed on top of his suitcase" (!) or "John was a shitty father to Julian, he owed that poor kid so much better,” because those opinions are based at least in part on a fairly conventional sense of right or wrong, smart or stupid, etc. But outright telling someone how he should have balanced his familial obligations and his career? Or telling him which one should have had higher priority for him? Ooh. That’s a whole other story, that. That just crosses a line for me.

Now, I could go into a whole litany of reasons I think Paul wanted Linda in the band (and some of them involve the words “homo-erotic symbiosis” and “John,” so I’ll spare you, oh Token Straight Male of the Comms ;D), and I don’t think all of them were positive or even particularly healthy - but the bottom line is, it’s none of my business. And I guess I can’t imagine even judging something so none-of-my-business, let alone ranting about it.
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 19th, 2007 05:24 pm (UTC)
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"Would drivel like "Bip Bop" be any LESS drivel if Linda didn't sing on it? Would Paul look any LESS ridiculous tap-dancing with an army of hermaphrodites and giant disembodied legs if Linda weren’t there?"

Part of my point is that if Paul had been working with musicians of his caliber instead of his wife and yes-men, he probably wouldn't have released horrid songs like Bip-Bop or partook in silly promo things. It's like when he made the Chaos & Creation CD. The producer actually had the courage to say to Paul McCartney "I don't like that song" or "You can do better than that" and Chaos turned out to be one of Paul's best CDs.

I think that some people are letting their postive feelings for Linda as a person (which are well deserved) get in the way of the fact that she was not a real musician.

Once again this is Beatle RANT so we are all here to talk about things that bug us about the Beatles. It's "presumptious" of you to think that ranting about things like John's crappy parenting or Paul's pot trafficing is fair game but pointing out Linda's lack of musical ability isn't.

However, I guess it's safe to say we'll have to agree to disagree. :-)
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From:zyzzybalubah
Date:April 18th, 2007 08:35 pm (UTC)

Oh I forgot....

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"You're no better or more discerning than Mick with his "I'd never have my old lady on stage" bullshit - you're both confusing image with reality."

I would think it was great for Linda to be in the band if she could either sing descently or really play an instrument.

I don't believe Linda's band membership uncut Paul's cred because she was his wife but rather because she was a photographer with no musical ability.

When Fleetwood Mac were making great music in the 1970's, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks were a couple and nobody mocked them because they both had talent.

The fact that you are trying to justify Linda's "carefully-limited & carefully mixed" (in other words, overly simplified and masked) musicianship, leads me to believe that you are the one "confusing image with reality".
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 18th, 2007 08:54 pm (UTC)
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First of all, I don't think the fact that Linda is sadly no longer with us is sufficient grounds to exempt her from this community. A lot of people involved in the Beatles happen to have kicked the bucket - that doesn't mean they didn't do things which can and should be criticised. I just don't buy this attitude, really.

"Maybe she just wanted to be with her husband and kids. o.O Wow! What a fucking weirdo."

There's nothing unusual about that, but it doesn't make it the right choice. As I said in my own comment, plenty of people would like to spend more time with their families, but they realise they have jobs to do - their own jobs, things that they are good at and do well in. Frankly, this "we can so we will" ethos gets up my nose a bit. It's just a luxury they had that most people don't, and I don't think it was a luxury that shouldn have been indulged, personally, for either of their sakes. Paul should've faced up to his insecurities about performing by himself, and Linda should've focused on her own career. A lot of my beef with Linda's involvement in Wings isn't to do with the fact that she somehow ruined the music; rather, I would have loved to see her remain to the top of her own game. And in hindsight, I think Paul would agree. It was a waste of a brilliant talent, and that saddens me.
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From:abromeds
Date:April 18th, 2007 09:09 pm (UTC)
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There's nothing unusual about that, but it doesn't make it the right choice. As I said in my own comment, plenty of people would like to spend more time with their families, but they realise they have jobs to do - their own jobs, things that they are good at and do well in.

...or they realize they want to do something else with their life which, while it might look like it "wastes" their talent to outsiders, is what will bring them the most personal fulfillment.

Paul should've faced up to his insecurities about performing by himself

Maybe he would have been better off had he done so, but I can see why that was a huge issue for him, and it's hard for me to blame him for it.

and Linda should've focused on her own career.

...or done whatever the hell she wanted with her life without reference to us. ??? I just don't get criticizing people's non-hurtful life choices so harshly. Maybe you don't mean it harshly, I dunno.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 18th, 2007 09:17 pm (UTC)
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I think perhaps people who don't have such talents, or at least don't have the opportunities that she had to utilise them, just feel incredibly frustrated by what they perceive to be waste.

I realise I'm making a huge assumption about what others might value or want from life though. I just have a hard time imagining being Linda and not feeling completely shit about being in that band. But I'm not Linda, and I'm sure she was happy, more power to her, and so on.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 18th, 2007 09:19 pm (UTC)
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P.S. Regarding "without reference to us" - it's really not about her having to live up to public opinion at all. But you know that, right?
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From:hb_princess
Date:April 19th, 2007 08:06 pm (UTC)
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just don't get criticizing people's non-hurtful life choices so harshly.

You just said in one line what I've been babble-assing all over the place TRYING to say. *facepalm*

Thanks, keed. ;D I don't know what I'd do without you lugging around the other half of my brain.
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From:minds_opaque
Date:April 20th, 2007 02:13 pm (UTC)
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Personally I have to agree with queenpeladon, that even if Linda being in the band wasn't so great for Paul, he could still make good music anyway, and the real issue was that she wasn't doing something she enjoyed and was talented at. And because of my personal values, that does bother me.

I don't know how much personal fulfillment Linda actually got from being in Wings so I can't really judge whether that was a good decision. I think a lot of the positives (being with Paul all the time) she could have gotten without actually going on stage with them, or while pursuing her photography career. Obviously, she and Paul felt differently.

Just to clarify, disagreeing with people's non-hurtful life choices doesn't mean judging them harshly. I wouldn't have made the choices Linda made, and I wonder whether they were good choices for her, but that doesn't mean I think she and Paul are bad people, and in the end, I don't know enough about them to make any objective statement on What Was Right For Them. I just don't see a problem with expressing an opinion about their lives, though. I wish I could think of some specific examples, but I know we do that on johnheartpaul all the time, about all the Beatles. And a lot of the time, there are no harsh judgments involved and no one makes any pretenses to be objective, so what's the problem?
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 19th, 2007 08:51 am (UTC)
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Yes, but sweetheart, there's a massive difference between giving up your career to be a wife and mother, and forcibly inserting yourself in your husband's band. :)
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 19th, 2007 01:28 pm (UTC)
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Well, I don't necessarily think it was wrong to go on tour with Paul and the kids. I do agree that it almost certainly did their marriage good to be together. Whether or not she should have actually been on stage seems a seperate issue to me.

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From:padawansguide
Date:April 19th, 2007 01:26 pm (UTC)
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First of all, I don't think the fact that Linda is sadly no longer with us is sufficient grounds to exempt her from this community. A lot of people involved in the Beatles happen to have kicked the bucket - that doesn't mean they didn't do things which can and should be criticised. I just don't buy this attitude, really.

Well, that's true! It would mean we can't talk about George and John for one thing. Or Maureen. Or Linda. Or Mal. Or Brian.

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From:hb_princess
Date:April 19th, 2007 08:00 pm (UTC)
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Uh, guys? By "the woman's dead" comment, I didn't mean that exempted her from criticism - I was simply tying into the fact that it was nice that she and Paul put so much emphasis on togetherness and family, considering they, uh, don't get too much time together any more.

Sorry, just...clarifying.

Frankly, this "we can so we will" ethos gets up my nose a bit. It's just a luxury they had that most people don't, and I don't think it was a luxury that should have been indulged, personally, for either of their
sakes.


See, this is what I genuinely do not get. Why? Why does it bother you (you meaning everyone it bothers) so much? And why do you feel you have the right to make that judgement? (And I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly just curious.)

A lot of my beef with Linda's involvement in Wings isn't to do with the fact that she somehow ruined the music; rather, I would have loved to see her remain to the top of her own game...It was a waste of a brilliant talent, and that saddens me.

Now, this? I agree with completely. :(
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