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Apr. 18th, 2007 @ 07:28 am Rant #17
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macca
abromeds:
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 18th, 2007 08:54 pm (UTC)
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First of all, I don't think the fact that Linda is sadly no longer with us is sufficient grounds to exempt her from this community. A lot of people involved in the Beatles happen to have kicked the bucket - that doesn't mean they didn't do things which can and should be criticised. I just don't buy this attitude, really.

"Maybe she just wanted to be with her husband and kids. o.O Wow! What a fucking weirdo."

There's nothing unusual about that, but it doesn't make it the right choice. As I said in my own comment, plenty of people would like to spend more time with their families, but they realise they have jobs to do - their own jobs, things that they are good at and do well in. Frankly, this "we can so we will" ethos gets up my nose a bit. It's just a luxury they had that most people don't, and I don't think it was a luxury that shouldn have been indulged, personally, for either of their sakes. Paul should've faced up to his insecurities about performing by himself, and Linda should've focused on her own career. A lot of my beef with Linda's involvement in Wings isn't to do with the fact that she somehow ruined the music; rather, I would have loved to see her remain to the top of her own game. And in hindsight, I think Paul would agree. It was a waste of a brilliant talent, and that saddens me.
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From:abromeds
Date:April 18th, 2007 09:09 pm (UTC)
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There's nothing unusual about that, but it doesn't make it the right choice. As I said in my own comment, plenty of people would like to spend more time with their families, but they realise they have jobs to do - their own jobs, things that they are good at and do well in.

...or they realize they want to do something else with their life which, while it might look like it "wastes" their talent to outsiders, is what will bring them the most personal fulfillment.

Paul should've faced up to his insecurities about performing by himself

Maybe he would have been better off had he done so, but I can see why that was a huge issue for him, and it's hard for me to blame him for it.

and Linda should've focused on her own career.

...or done whatever the hell she wanted with her life without reference to us. ??? I just don't get criticizing people's non-hurtful life choices so harshly. Maybe you don't mean it harshly, I dunno.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 18th, 2007 09:17 pm (UTC)
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I think perhaps people who don't have such talents, or at least don't have the opportunities that she had to utilise them, just feel incredibly frustrated by what they perceive to be waste.

I realise I'm making a huge assumption about what others might value or want from life though. I just have a hard time imagining being Linda and not feeling completely shit about being in that band. But I'm not Linda, and I'm sure she was happy, more power to her, and so on.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 18th, 2007 09:19 pm (UTC)
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P.S. Regarding "without reference to us" - it's really not about her having to live up to public opinion at all. But you know that, right?
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From:abromeds
Date:April 19th, 2007 01:46 pm (UTC)
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Yes, I do, I was just referring to what you said above, about us as outsiders making assumptions about others' wants/values, etc. :)
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From:hb_princess
Date:April 19th, 2007 08:06 pm (UTC)
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just don't get criticizing people's non-hurtful life choices so harshly.

You just said in one line what I've been babble-assing all over the place TRYING to say. *facepalm*

Thanks, keed. ;D I don't know what I'd do without you lugging around the other half of my brain.
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From:abromeds
Date:April 19th, 2007 10:15 pm (UTC)
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No problem! It's not like it's HEAVY or anything!!! *ba-boom CHING* :D :D :D

Er, sorry, couldn't resist. And OMG shut up! I have been reading all your (deliciously long) replies in a haze of delight, admiration, and lust. If I still had my "let's fuck" icon, I'd soooooooooo be using it right now. :)
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From:minds_opaque
Date:April 20th, 2007 02:13 pm (UTC)
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Personally I have to agree with queenpeladon, that even if Linda being in the band wasn't so great for Paul, he could still make good music anyway, and the real issue was that she wasn't doing something she enjoyed and was talented at. And because of my personal values, that does bother me.

I don't know how much personal fulfillment Linda actually got from being in Wings so I can't really judge whether that was a good decision. I think a lot of the positives (being with Paul all the time) she could have gotten without actually going on stage with them, or while pursuing her photography career. Obviously, she and Paul felt differently.

Just to clarify, disagreeing with people's non-hurtful life choices doesn't mean judging them harshly. I wouldn't have made the choices Linda made, and I wonder whether they were good choices for her, but that doesn't mean I think she and Paul are bad people, and in the end, I don't know enough about them to make any objective statement on What Was Right For Them. I just don't see a problem with expressing an opinion about their lives, though. I wish I could think of some specific examples, but I know we do that on johnheartpaul all the time, about all the Beatles. And a lot of the time, there are no harsh judgments involved and no one makes any pretenses to be objective, so what's the problem?
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From:abromeds
Date:April 20th, 2007 08:49 pm (UTC)
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I wouldn't have made the choices Linda made, and I wonder whether they were good choices for her, but that doesn't mean I think she and Paul are bad people, and in the end, I don't know enough about them to make any objective statement on What Was Right For Them.

Exactly, I feel the same, but that last sentiment is one which I find lacking in some other arguments. That's my problem. I've explained it as well as I can further upthread.
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From:minds_opaque
Date:April 22nd, 2007 11:48 pm (UTC)
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I understand your problem. Are you sure they were trying to make some objective judgment, though? Maybe they were just expressing their opinions, too. :-P
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From:minds_opaque
Date:April 22nd, 2007 11:49 pm (UTC)
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Oh, and I can't find your comment in here about Linda being actually quite sassy and not at all a shadow-person, but I've been meaning to ask you why her image might have changed so much after she died.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 19th, 2007 08:51 am (UTC)
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Yes, but sweetheart, there's a massive difference between giving up your career to be a wife and mother, and forcibly inserting yourself in your husband's band. :)
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 19th, 2007 10:36 am (UTC)
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Actually, "forcibly insert" wasn't right - perhaps "allowed herself to be forcibly inserted" is more accurate, because I think it was 99% Paul's influence. So there you go, have fun with that one. LOL
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 19th, 2007 01:28 pm (UTC)
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Well, I don't necessarily think it was wrong to go on tour with Paul and the kids. I do agree that it almost certainly did their marriage good to be together. Whether or not she should have actually been on stage seems a seperate issue to me.

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From:padawansguide
Date:April 19th, 2007 03:12 pm (UTC)
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hahhahahha! THAT BITCH!!!
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From:minds_opaque
Date:April 20th, 2007 02:15 pm (UTC)
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This doesn't add anything substantive, but I agree!
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From:padawansguide
Date:April 19th, 2007 01:26 pm (UTC)
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First of all, I don't think the fact that Linda is sadly no longer with us is sufficient grounds to exempt her from this community. A lot of people involved in the Beatles happen to have kicked the bucket - that doesn't mean they didn't do things which can and should be criticised. I just don't buy this attitude, really.

Well, that's true! It would mean we can't talk about George and John for one thing. Or Maureen. Or Linda. Or Mal. Or Brian.

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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 19th, 2007 01:30 pm (UTC)
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Thank you! :)
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From:hb_princess
Date:April 19th, 2007 08:00 pm (UTC)
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Uh, guys? By "the woman's dead" comment, I didn't mean that exempted her from criticism - I was simply tying into the fact that it was nice that she and Paul put so much emphasis on togetherness and family, considering they, uh, don't get too much time together any more.

Sorry, just...clarifying.

Frankly, this "we can so we will" ethos gets up my nose a bit. It's just a luxury they had that most people don't, and I don't think it was a luxury that should have been indulged, personally, for either of their
sakes.


See, this is what I genuinely do not get. Why? Why does it bother you (you meaning everyone it bothers) so much? And why do you feel you have the right to make that judgement? (And I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly just curious.)

A lot of my beef with Linda's involvement in Wings isn't to do with the fact that she somehow ruined the music; rather, I would have loved to see her remain to the top of her own game...It was a waste of a brilliant talent, and that saddens me.

Now, this? I agree with completely. :(
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 19th, 2007 08:13 pm (UTC)
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"See, this is what I genuinely do not get. Why? Why does it bother you (you meaning everyone it bothers) so much? And why do you feel you have the right to make that judgement? (And I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly just curious.)"

Everyone has the "right" to make judgements, that's part of human nature. I'm certainly not going to sit here and pretend I don't look at what other people are doing with their lives and make some kind of assessment. I don't believe that you don't do the same. You had to make a judgement in order to comment on this rant - your judgement just happens to be favourable.
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From:queenpeladon
Date:April 19th, 2007 09:07 pm (UTC)
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Hello, me again. I've been thinking about this, and I'd just to take a step back and apologise for any rash or unfair judgements I might have made. I think when we start getting into the nitty gritty of a rant, we end up veering impossibly from the main point and getting boxed into awkward corners that we didn't want to get into. My main point was simply that I personally would have had more respect for Linda if she hadn't joined the band, and I believe it may have been more beneficial for both of them as individuals if she hadn't. I would've liked to see her continue her own career and utilise her own talents, but as I said somewhere else, if she'd simply come along for the Wings ride to be with her family, I wouldn't have had any criticism to make because (stunning as this is :) I'm actually not such an anarcho-feminist tyrant that I insist on every woman HAVING to work in order to retain her personal integrity. I'm in favour of choice, for everyone. The debate was, as I saw it, purely about whether or not she should have been in the band. Obviously the comm is divided pretty much down the middle on this, and that's great. I freely admit I'm not a Wings expert, so perhaps my opinion is essentially flawed from the get-go.

Hopefully you don't think there's anything too appalling in this comment, because to be honest love, playing the bitch all the time can grind a girl down. Sometimes even I want to lay down my sword and just get on with everyone! :)
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From:hb_princess
Date:April 21st, 2007 04:47 am (UTC)
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Sometimes even I want to lay down my sword and just get on with everyone! :)

Me, too, babe. Me, too. :D

As I told Z below, I was feeling extraordinarily pissy to begin with, and his rant was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, so to speak. You know? I mean, it IS an issue I have definite opinions about, but I wouldn't have been so damned belligerent in expressing them if I hadn't been spoiling for a fight in the first place.

And I think I just spelled "belligerent" wrong. Damn.